#1 || 08·03·10··10:08 || donsands

Short and sweet post.

I have a good friend, a Bible prof, who sees Romans 9 as a corporate explanayion of God choosing.
Jacob represents Israel, and Esau Gentiles. Paul is merely showing us that God elects different ethnic gruops in His plan of gathering a people to Himself.
Have you ever run into this?

I reject it, and yet my friend seems to think his interpretation is so much more clear and simple.

Thanks for sharing your heart. It's spot on with my own.

#2 || 08·03·10··12:07 || David

Don,

Yes, I've heard that. It doesn't explain Ephesians 1 or other passages on election, though, does it?

#3 || 08·03·10··12:50 || Mike Leake

It's so funny that at the same time you are doing a series on Why you are a Calvinist, I am doing one on Why I am NOT a Calvinist. It's not what you might think. Doctrinally speaking I would consider myself a Calvinist. My point is that, even though I believe these things doctrinally, often my life doesn't reflect my belief. I have enjoyed your series, I will probably link to them, when I begin a follow up series on Why I Am a Calvinist. Feel free to check out my current series. You can read the first part (with links to other parts) here.

#4 || 08·03·10··14:00 || David Jordan

David,
Amen, bro. I'm enjoying this series of posts. I work with an office full of AG and COG folks that can't seem to grasp total depravity and actually scoff at it. I can't believe their eyes are blinded to this biblical truth.

Keep it up!
David

#5 || 08·03·10··16:46 || donsands

"It doesn't explain Ephesians 1 or other passages on election, though, does it?"

Nope.

"Esau is one of those described in my last post on depravity; so are you and so am I. Seeing how we, in our natural state, hate God and want no part of him, it is perfectly reasonable that he would hate us in return."

When the Word cuts the heart with this truth, as it did Job (Job 42:5-6), Peter (Luke 5:8), and Isaiah (Isa. 6:5), then that same heart will see God's sovereignty in a brighter light, and the peace, that up to now was half-hearted, will become more full.

#6 || 08·03·12··12:36 || Michael Yates

Once again, well said. When you consider total depravity, this only seems to make sense. I've never heard it explained quite this way though. We think that God is evil by choosing some to not be saved, but that is not the case. If we were indeed left to free will, none of us would choose God, thus he has chosen us.

Wow!

#7 || 08·03·15··07:19 || J.D. Heinrich

As far as getting an uderstanding of who we are in regard to who God is, I like the way the book of Job puts it towards the end. Stand up like a man so that I(God) can drill you with some questions you have absolutely no answers for.
By the way I found your blog by way of Daniel.
JD Heinrich

#8 || 08·03·20··14:47 || Jim

This God selects some and to hell with the rest is too clean. Somehow God does a work in the sinners heart to allow them to make the choice!

#9 || 08·03·20··16:07 || David

Jim,
Perhaps you could name something that you have chosen to believe, as well as something you now believe that you could choose not to believe.

#10 || 08·03·23··19:33 || Sharron

How would you feel if God did not choose you?

#11 || 08·03·23··22:23 || David

Sharron,
I don't suppose I would feel anything at all. If I didn't believe the Gospel, why would election concern me?

Your question implies that there are some who would like to believe, who want to follow Christ, but can't because they weren't chosen. There are no such people. There are none asking who do not receive, seeking who do not find, or knocking to whom the door is not opened.

#12 || 08·03·31··21:59 || Stephen

This is my first time reading your blog. It is very interesting. I do not understand the need to witness if your theology is accurate.

#13 || 08·04·01··13:06 || David

Stephen,
The short answer is, because God uses means to accomplish his ends.

We witness because God has not only ordained the end, but the means also. He has chosen whom he will save, and he has given to them the duty of spreading the Gospel which is “the power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16). Romans 10 says:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God has guaranteed the salvation of all the elect, but he does not save without faith. There can be no faith in what is not known, so Christ has sent preachers and teachers, and all believers, to preach the Gospel. These are the means God uses to bring his people to faith in him.

#14 || 08·04·01··17:18 || Stephen

Regarding those who have never heard, the Bible states that they are accountable as well. How does predestination affect those individuals?

#15 || 08·04·02··08:31 || David

Among those who have not heard, all those who are predestined to eternal life will hear. They must hear, or else they cannot be saved (see Romans 10 in my comment #13, above). God will send a preacher, they will hear the Gospel, and they will believe.

#16 || 08·06·27··06:32 || Christie

There is no "election", but God knows who is going to choose to accept Christ. People can choose to reject God and can find God on their own. I don't believe in the elect, only that God has foreknowledge of who is going to have faith and receive salvation. Also, if these 2 points were true...there would be no need to witness to anyone or spread the message of Jesus. Because if there were just the elect that God wanted to save, it would be pointless to spread the good news. These points take away free will, which God gave us all.

#17 || 08·06·27··07:36 || David

Christie,
Thanks for sharing your opinion, but until you can support it with Scripture, it remains just that — an opinion.

Your argument (if it can be called that) goes like this:

1. If a is true, then b is true, also.
2. I reject b.
3. Therefore, a is false.

Can you see the problem with that? The only authority you appeal to is yourself.

#18 || 10·10·05··11:45 || James

I appreciate your views on Calvinism. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle of Calvinism and Armenianism. I could be a Calvinist on some points if each part of the T.U.L.I.P didn't build on the previous. I have a couple of questions for you. God says that He is not willing that any should perish (2Pet 3:9). We know that not everyone is not going to heaven, but who decides? Like you, I am going to keep my post short and talk about what you said about faith. Firtst on total depravity. Didn't God, on a positional basis (not relational), reconcile mankind back to Him through Jesus Christ? He says this in 2Cor. 5:19. In v. 14, Paul says that Christ died for all. Once we are in a position to believe, we have to receive the grace to believe. Calvinists and Armenianists disagree on this matter because 'C' believe that totally depraved people can't accept it, and 'A' believe that they can just choose it. When in all actuality they are both wrong. Let me explain. Jesus said in John 6:65, that no one can come to the the Son unless it has been granted by the Father. Now I know you will agree with that. : ) But what does that mean? God calls us in two ways. First He calls us by His very Word. All men everywhere have been commanded to repent. (Acts 17:30). Through His Word, we as Christians share His Word and they receive the faith they need to be saved by grace. The second calling is the Holy Spirit Himself to bring us to a knowledge of sin and need of a Savior. However, God says that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9), that faith we receive comes from His word as we share it with others (Rom 10:17). Athough God knew, because of His omniscience, who would believe and who wouldn't; He did not decide. The verses in Romans 9:15-24 are based on foreknowledge of rejection. The decision made by God that we have no right to question is: Why did God create people who He knew would reject Him and then allow them to die and go to hell? I told you from the beginning, I fall somewhere in the middle. Have a great and blessed day!

#19 || 10·10·05··14:20 || David

James,

It seems you are nowhere near that mythical middle between Calvinism and Arminianism (an Arminian adheres to the theology of Arminius and his followers; an Armenian is someone from Armenia). You are an Arminian. I’m pretty sure I’ve answered all of this in the posts in this series. Did you actually read them, or did you just jump straight to your soapbox? I ask, because you really haven’t engaged anything I’ve written. So I’m inclined to just delete your little “theology lesson” and go on with my business. Nevertheless, I’m going to try to separate your rather long, muddled paragraph and answer you point-by-point.

• 2 Peter 3:9 — yet all are not saved, are they? So what’s your point? As for the question of who decides who will be saved, try Ephesians 1 and Romans 7–9
• God has not reconciled all of mankind to him. If he had, everyone would be saved — not potentially, but right now. Let’s try a little context vis-à-vis 2 Corinthians 5:

  14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

  It is plain that this passage is talking about believers (furthermore, all of the epistles are written to believers, which also must be taken into account). The “all” for whom Christ died are the same as the “all” who therefore died (v. 14). This is clearly the same doctrine found in Galatians 5:20, and as we see in v. 17, this is all about union with Christ. Vv. 18–19 make obvious the fact that the reconciliation of which Paul writes is particular: “who reconciled us” (remember, this is written to believers), and “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (again, clearly believers). There is no hint here of some general, non-redeeming reconciliation.
• Arminians don’t believe that depraved people “can just choose it.” Pelagians (like Charles Finney) believe that. Arminians believe in prevenient grace which enables the sinner to believe. Calvinists believe that sinners not only cannot, but will not come to Christ — they are enemies of God.
• I can only call your comments on foreknowledge absurd. That Arminians don’t sweep Romans 8:29 under the rug and ignore it entirely is truly a wonder. That they keep regurgitating their embarrassing interpretation is perplexing beyond words. Simple grammar that they should have learned in middle school tells us that the object of the verb “foreknew” is “whom.” It is not “whether or not they would believe.” I make this bold statement based on the total absence of any reference in this chapter to the disposition of the “whom.” If it’s not in the chapter, it’s safe to say it’s not in the sentence. While God certainly knows everything in advance, he isn’t choosing based on that kind of foreknowledge. The foreknowledge spoken of here is that of relationship — I know my wife, I don’t know you. However, unlike my knowledge of my wife, his knowledge is from eternity — hence, foreknowledge. But the example of my knowledge of my wife is appropriate: God’s foreknowledge of his elect indicates an intimate relationship, as in “Adam knew Eve” (KJV), which he foreordained before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4–5).

#20 || 10·10·05··14:28 || David

Well, rats. I’ll have to make a correction. There actually is a reference in Romans 9 “to the disposition of the ‘whom.’” Verse 5:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.